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American players with money stuck on Full Tilt Poker can expect to see their funds returned 'shortly' according to an update global rigged the Garden City Group, the organisation charged with returning the cash on behalf of the US government.
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If the aggregate FTP Account Balances for all eligible Petitioners exceed the funds available for distribution, payments shall be made to eligible Petitioners on a pro rata basis.

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I am also filling in a couple blanks based on the evidence presented in the amendment.
It seems that Full Tilt was turned into a ponzi scheme at some point or always was one and was run as such for an extended period of time.
I do not know who is responsible for doing this or who knew and understood that this was going on.
It seems that they were stealing player money for a while.
No, the company was not just mismanaged and incompetent.
They were stealing money and they knew it.
How do we know this?
Well, to start with we know that they did not keep player deposits in segregated accounts.
Like it or not this is actually a perfectly legitimate way to run a poker site.
The rest, it invests and makes money off of it.
A poker site could very legitimately do exactly the same thing.
Yes, your money in the bank is much safer because it is backed up by the FDIC if the bank were to go bankrupt.
Unfortunately, we do not have the same protection on online poker sites.
This does not make the practice of investing deposits illegal or wrong for poker sites though unless segregated player funds are a condition of licensing.
So what was wrong with what Full Tilt did?
The problem was that Full Tilt not only used player deposits to invest.
Full Tilt used player deposits to pay the owners of Full Tilt.
Dividends should only be paid if a company is very financially stable and can afford to pay.
Full Tilt was essentially paying dividends with money that it did not have.
They are just for illustration.
Also this was probably done over several years rather than all at once.
So what happens if everyone tries to withdraw?
Well the players are just out of luck.
So basically they just stole it.
Imagine you own a shoe store.
Then the shoe store goes bankrupt, but who cares?
See anything wrong with that?
That would be illegal and that is what FTP did.
Instead of borrowing from a bank they borrowed from the players.
This is not a case of mismanagement; this is a case of clear theft.
Full Tilt was just trying to stay afloat while moving money form depositors to withdrawers as the owners kept taking as much money as possible out of the company.
Whoever is responsible for all this is just as guilty as Bernie Madoff.
I am also filling in a couple blanks and connecting the dots based on the evidence presented in the amendment.
I am not a lawyer or an accountant, but I believe that I supported this post with enough evidence that you do not have to trust my personal opinion.
It seems that Full Tilt was turned into a fraud and a scam at some point or always was one and was run as such for an extended period of time.
It appears that, as the Board of Directors, Ray Bitar, Howard Lederer, Chris Ferguson, and Rafe Furst were responsible for this fraud.
It seems that they were stealing player money for a while.
No, the company was not just mismanaged and incompetent.
They were stealing money and they knew it.
How do we know this?
Well, to start with we know that they did not keep player deposits in segregated accounts.
Like it or not this is actually a perfectly legal way to run a poker site under some licensing agencies.
The problem was that Full Tilt not only used player deposits to invest.
Full Tilt used player deposits to pay the owners of Full Tilt.
Dividends should only be paid if a company is very financially stable and can afford to pay.
These payments included a dividend payment on April 1st 2011.
The Board of Directors is responsible for making dividend payments and ensuring that the company is solvent before doing so.
Making dividend payments while a company is insolvent is illegal in every country that I know of including in Guersney Alderney follows Guersney investment laws.
Full Tilt was essentially paying dividends with money that it did not have.
They are just for illustration.
Also this was probably done over several years rather than all at full tilt poker how to get money back />So what happens if everyone tries to withdraw?
Well the players are just out of luck.
So basically they just stole it.
Imagine you own a shoe store.
Then the shoe store goes bankrupt, but who cares?
See anything wrong with that?
That would be illegal and that is what FTP did.
This is not a case of mismanagement; this is a case of clear theft.
Full Tilt was just trying to stay afloat while moving money form depositors to withdrawers as the owners kept taking as much money as possible out of the company.
Sure they lost a lot of money on bad business decisions such as allowing players to play with money that was not taken from their bank accounts.
The fraud came in when Full Tilt took player funds and used them to pay huge dividends to their owners.
Let me clear a major myth.
The DOJ did not take all of our money.
If huge dividends were not paid to the owners, Full Tilt would have more than enough money to pay back players.
It seems that the DOJ actually did the poker community a pretty big favor by shutting down Full Tilt before they were allowed to steal more of our money.
Cliffs: FTP used player money to pay dividends to the owners The players' money is or was in the bank accounts of the owners This amounts to stealing player funds Citations 1.
There is a poker twoplustwo from FTPDoug towards the bottom of this Pokernews article 2.
These figures come from the SDNY press release which can be found here 3.
A director who fails to comply with this requirement or signs a Solvency Certificate without having reasonable grounds to do so will be guilty of an offence.
For the purposes of the Law, a company satisfies the solvency test if:- a it is able to pay its debts as they become due; and b the value of its assets is greater than the value of its liabilities, and c in the case of a company supervised by the GFSC, the company satisfies any other requirements as to solvency imposed in relation to it by the relevant legislation under which it is supervised.
That person will also be guilty of a criminal offence.
So glad I never deposited a dime on that site.
In electrical tool poker of PokerStars troubles, I am glad to have done business with them, and would do it again.
The OP is pretty myopic.
First, the word "stole" implies malicious intent.
Whether or not the owners had this intent is debatable, but certainly the example here isn't proof.
When any other company goes bankrupt, are its employees accused of stealing from the company for having earned a salary?
That's because the salary is compensation for having worked; whether or not the company goes bankrupt and who loses out as a resulta salary is a salary - the employees even if the employees are also owners are separate entities.
One can argue the owners were OVERcompensated and this was certainly brought up when failing banks which received TARP money paid out bonuses to executives and one can argue the owners were negligent paying out way too much money but you can't seriously argue they were stealing unless they took more than their contracts allowed them to take.
Full Tilt will, or can, correctly contest the use of the words "not segregated.
Using the Alderney FTP definition of "segregated," Full Tilt's funds were segregated but unprotected, while Pokerstars funds were segregated and protected.
Sure, it would have been better for Full Tilt to segregate and protect.
But they were only required to segregate.
Likewise, Full Tilt will or can legitimately argue that they fully complied with the terms of their licensing.
Sites including Pokerstars are not required to keep 100% of players' money as liquid capital; they are required to keep certain "working capital" ratios.
As far as I know, Full Tilt faithfully complied with its requirements to do so; its liquidity problem came from essentially a bank run after April 15th.
And again, I'm not saying this is the best way to run a business - there's probably room to criticize how lax Alderney's licensing requirements are - but the bottom line is that it's very likely that many people at Full Tilt perhaps even the owners genuinely believed that they were doing the right things.
The intent portion of "stealing" or "fraud" simply isn't there.
Your shoe store analogy sucks because players did not "lend" money to Full Tilt.
Players did not "invest" money in Full Tilt.
Except in the case of Full Tilt, there was no Alderney equivalent of FDIC.
Players have to accept some blame in this as well; we all knew that playing on these sites were somewhat risky.
We knew about problems depositing and withdrawing long before April 15th, we saw the charges from Algerian furniture companies and lolled.
We knew these sites were licensed out of weird-ass quasi-countries and nobody looked very closely at the regulations.
The OP is pretty myopic.
First, the word "stole" implies malicious intent.
Whether or not the owners had this intent is debatable, but certainly the example here isn't proof.
When any other company goes bankrupt, are its employees accused of stealing from the company for having earned a salary?
That's because the salary is compensation for having worked; whether or not the company goes bankrupt and who loses out as a resulta salary is a salary - the employees even if the employees are also owners are separate entities.
One can argue the owners were OVERcompensated and this was certainly brought up when failing banks which received TARP money paid out bonuses to executives and one can argue the owners were negligent paying out way too much money but you can't seriously argue they were stealing unless they took more than their contracts allowed them to take.
Paying employees salaries vs paying owners dividends is like apple to oranges.
The latter is fraud.
The OP is pretty myopic.
First, the word "stole" implies malicious intent.
Whether or not the owners had this intent is debatable, but certainly the example here isn't proof.
When any other company goes bankrupt, are its employees accused of stealing from the company for having earned a salary?
That's because the salary is compensation for having worked; whether or not the company goes bankrupt and who loses out as a resulta salary is a salary - the employees even if the employees are also owners are separate entities.
One can argue the owners were OVERcompensated and this was certainly brought up when failing banks which received TARP money paid out bonuses to executives and one can argue the owners were negligent paying out way too much money but you can't seriously argue they were stealing unless they took more than their contracts allowed them to take.
Edit: Start on pg.
From the link above: Quote: 115.
But you're prolly right its debatable whether or not they knew 3.
Likewise, Full Tilt will or can legitimately argue that they fully complied with the terms of their licensing.
Sites including Pokerstars are not required to keep 100% of players' money as liquid capital; they are required to keep certain "working capital" ratios.
As far as I know, Full Tilt faithfully complied with its requirements to do so; its liquidity problem came from essentially a bank run after April 15th.
And again, I'm not saying this is the best way to run a business - there's probably room to criticize how lax Alderney's licensing requirements are - but the bottom line is that it's very likely that many people at Full Tilt perhaps even the owners genuinely believed that they were doing the right things.
The intent portion of "stealing" or "fraud" simply isn't there.
They didn't pay anyone.
Didn't cost them a single dime.
And yet the dividends kept on going to the shareholders.
So ask yourself, how did FTP make up for these massive losses?
Whose funds did they use to pay themselves?
The OP is pretty myopic.
First, the word "stole" implies malicious intent.
Whether or not the owners had this intent is debatable, but certainly the example here isn't proof.
When any other company goes bankrupt, are its employees accused of stealing from the company for having earned a salary?
That's because the salary is compensation for having worked; whether or not the company goes bankrupt and who loses out as a resulta salary is a salary - the employees even if the employees are also owners are separate entities.
One can argue the owners were OVERcompensated and this was certainly brought up when failing banks which received TARP money paid out bonuses to executives and one can argue the owners were negligent paying out way too much money but you can't seriously argue they were stealing unless they took more than their contracts allowed them to take.
I'm not even talking about the owners' salaries in this post.
Yea, they are super shady, but not the criminal part.
I'm talking about the dividends that Full Tilt paid out to its owners.
Dividends are not anywhere near salaries.
Maybe I didn't read article a good job of explaining them.
Dividends are what companies pay to their owners.
The owners don't have to do any work in order to receive them.
I'll deal with your other points later, but I got to go.
The OP is pretty myopic.
First, the word "stole" implies malicious intent.
Whether or not the owners had this intent is debatable, but certainly the example here isn't proof.
When any other company goes bankrupt, are its employees accused of stealing from the company for having earned a salary?
That's because the salary is compensation for having worked; whether or not the company goes bankrupt and who loses out as a resulta salary is a salary - the employees even if the employees are also owners are separate entities.
One can argue the owners were OVERcompensated and this was certainly brought up when failing banks which received TARP money paid out bonuses to executives and one can argue the owners were negligent paying out way too much money but you can't seriously argue they were stealing unless they took more than their contracts allowed them to take.
Full Tilt will, or can, correctly contest the use of the words "not segregated.
Using the Alderney FTP definition of "segregated," Full Tilt's funds were segregated but unprotected, while Pokerstars funds were segregated and protected.
Sure, it would have been better for Full Tilt to segregate and protect.
But they were only required to segregate.
Likewise, Full Tilt will or can legitimately argue that they fully complied with the terms of their licensing.
Sites including Pokerstars are not required to keep 100% of players' money as liquid capital; they are required to keep certain "working capital" ratios.
As far as I know, Full Tilt faithfully complied with its requirements to do so; its liquidity problem came from essentially a bank run after April 15th.
And again, I'm not saying this is the best way to run a business - there's probably room to criticize how lax Alderney's licensing requirements are - but the bottom line is that it's very likely that many people at Full Tilt perhaps even the owners genuinely believed that they were doing the right things.
The intent portion of "stealing" or "fraud" simply isn't there.
Your shoe store analogy sucks because players did not "lend" money to Full Tilt.
Players did not "invest" money in Full Tilt.
Except in the case of Full Tilt, there was no Alderney equivalent of FDIC.
Players have to accept some blame in this as well; we all knew that playing on these sites were somewhat risky.
We knew about problems depositing and withdrawing long before April 15th, we saw the charges from Full tilt poker how to get money back furniture companies and lolled.
We knew these sites were licensed out of weird-ass quasi-countries and nobody looked very closely at the regulations.
Players funds ARE NOT AND WERE NOT AVAILABLE.
It wasn't a case of not having LIQUID assets, it's a case of having NO ASSETS AT ALL.
FTP took money on one pretense to use as player fundsknowingly used it for another purpose to pay off ownersand got caught.
The OP is pretty myopic.
First, the word "stole" implies malicious intent.
Whether or not the owners had this intent is debatable, but certainly the example here isn't proof.
When any other company goes bankrupt, are its employees accused of stealing from the company for having earned a salary?
That's because the salary is compensation for having worked; whether or not the company goes bankrupt and who loses out as a resulta salary is a salary - the employees even if the employees are also owners are separate entities.
One can argue the owners were OVERcompensated and this was certainly brought up when failing banks which received TARP money paid out bonuses to executives and one can argue the owners were negligent paying out way too much money but you can't seriously argue they were stealing unless they took more than their contracts allowed them to take.
Just to prove your speculation is totally baseless.
From the DOJ: Quote: 106.
Rather than protect player funds as promised, Full Tilt Poker distributed hundreds of millions of dollars to its owners.
Many of the distribution payments were transferred from Full Tilt Poker directly to bank accounts the professional poker players affiliated with Full Tilt Poker and other owners had established in Switzerland and other foreign countries.
I'm surprised there is so much confusion.
May have to rewrite some of the OP.
If you have questions about some of this please ask.
I will answer and you won't get flamed.
I started this thread to try to explain to people who don't understand banks, dividends, loans, businesses how it happened.
Maybe I didn't do the best job, I'll try to fix it later but make sure you understand what is going on before you attack my OP cause that's probably gonna get you flamed from what I see so far full tilt poker how to get money back />I'm surprised there is so much confusion.
May have to rewrite some of the OP.
If you have questions about some of this please ask.
I will answer and you won't get flamed.
I started this thread to try to explain to people who don't understand banks, dividends, loans, businesses how it happened.
Maybe I didn't do the best job, I'll try to fix it later but make sure you understand what is going on before you attack my OP cause that's probably gonna get you flamed from what I see so far lol.
FWIW, I thought your post made perfect sense.
Paying employees salaries vs paying owners dividends is like apple to oranges.
The latter is fraud.
You might want to rephrase this given the bajillion companies that pay out dividends to its owners shareholders.
Of course the DOJ suit states that.
Just like the prosecutor's opening statement will state that the DOJ will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that FTP knew.
FTP had a lot of problems making withdrawals from bank accounts earlier in the michael lewis poker />They had a significant shortfall because they were crediting accounts without withdrawing - a phenomenon that was not only noticed by players, click even exploited by some.
Was it unreasonable for FTP to think that they would eventually be able to hack around this and claim their withdrawals at some point in the future?
They didn't pay anyone.
Didn't cost them a single dime.
Working capital ratios generally although I admit I haven't looked specifically at Alderney's take into account liabilities.
Requesting a payout reduces their working capital ratio as much as actually withdrawing it.
And yet the dividends kept on going to the shareholders.
I don't think it's a good idea, but that's not theft or fraud.
That's bad business practice.
I didn't think it was a good idea for GM to be focusing on SUVs and totally ignoring fuel economy in the early 2000's as gas prices were skyrocketing.
I just sold my shares, but if your logic holds, they actually stole from me!
Reading must be frustrating too; at no point did Full Tilt claimed player funds were in sequestered accounts that weren't touched, and Full Tilt's player funds were "segregated" according to the rules that they were licensed under.
By your logic, the shoe store owner can legally steal end up with all the money With the FYP above, I completely agree.
He's run the business poorly, and the bank has invested poorly, but claiming he stole is asinine.
Just because Chris Ferguson has money that used to belong to you doesn't mean he stole it.
If it was a mutually-agreed transaction, it's not stealing.
Welcome to the world of free markets where you okay let's be honest - WE were free to check out Alderney's licensing requirements but didn't, WE got plenty of warning signs but ignored them, and guess continue reading, WE got stuck sitting around with our dicks in our hands while Howard Lederer bangs porn check this out three deep.
You get mad props and a full apology from at least me if you have an archived post from pre-April 15th where you point out a.
I didn't listen to you back then, and I paid the price.
You might want to rephrase this given the bajillion companies that pay out dividends to its owners shareholders.
When a company is insolvent, it is fraud.
Quote: The events of Black Friday came on the heels of prior government enforcement activities and significant theft.
While we full tilt poker how to get money back that offering peer-to-peer online poker did not violate any federal laws - a belief supported by many solid and well-reasoned legal opinions - the DOJ took a different view.
Until April 15th, Full Tilt Poker had always covered these losses so that no player was ever affected.
Finally, during late 2010 and early 2011, Full Tilt Poker experienced unprecedented issues with some of its third-party processors that greatly contributed to its financial problems.
While the company was on its way to addressing the problems caused by these processors, Full Tilt Poker never anticipated that the DOJ would proceed as it did by seizing our global domain name and shutting down the site worldwide.
This is from the FTP site.
According to FTP themselves, they were fine before the DOJ seized their funds.
If the DOJ's report is correct, this statement is absolutely false.
FTP management knew full well they did not have the funds to repay players even if the DOJ did not seize their accounts.
So why should I trust that FTP is on the level?
Quote: With the FYP above, I completely agree.
He's run the business poorly, and the bank has invested poorly, but claiming he stole is asinine.
Just because Chris Ferguson has money that used to belong to you doesn't mean he stole it.
If it was a mutually-agreed transaction, are poker tournament schedule uk think not stealing.
If the shoe store owner took this loan and KNOWINGLY and INTENTIONALLY paid himself all of the money only to let the company go bankrupt, he's going to find himself facing civil and potentially criminal lawsuits.
If my company goes bankrupt because I ran it poorly maybe I get a pass.
If I intentionally suck all the money out of the company into my own bank accounts, and then say "oops, I guess the company failed," I stole it.
That's what FTP did.
Maybe Ferguson and Lederer didn't know, but they were board members.
They were officially fiduciaries of the company.
The DOJ is not alleging that FTP just screwed up their business.
They are alleging that FTP did this intentionally to siphon money away from the company and to board members, including paying dividends with cash that the company desperately needed to operate the business.
NOTE: I couldn't care less either way.
I was on Stars and I got all my money back.
Maybe this isn't stealing in Alderny, but in the US when fiduciaries enrich themselves by sucking cash out of an insolvent company it's stealing.
Don't feed the troll.
That is where it stayed with PS.
Then they discovered FTP was also engaging in pretty spectacular fraud.
I have no doubt that FTP owners thought they could eventually pay back the money.
That's pretty irrelevant to me.
The amounts in question between what they had and what they owes while they were still paying out tens of millions of dollars in "profit" to the owners is ridiculous.
According to FTP themselves, they were fine before the DOJ seized their funds.
If the DOJ's report is correct, this statement is absolutely false.
FTP management knew full well they did not have the funds to repay players even if the DOJ did not seize their accounts.
So why should I trust that FTP is on the level?
You also shouldn't assume that everything the DOJ says is on the level, either.
I mean, nobody takes the DOJ's word when they state with absolute certainty that online poker is illegal, right?
If Full Tilt has just about any operational accounts besides those, full tilt poker how to get money back quite possible that they THOUGHT they were solvent when they actually paid out the "dividends.
The DOJ is not alleging that FTP just screwed up their business.
They are alleging that FTP did this intentionally to siphon money away from the company and to board members, including paying dividends with cash that the company desperately needed to operate the business.
On April 14th, they might legitimately have thought they were okay.
Maybe this isn't stealing in Alderny, but in the US when fiduciaries enrich themselves by sucking cash out of an insolvent company it's stealing.
We collectively as US poker players are trying to impose a standard that we're used to - a standard which I BTW agree with and think is beneficial to business - but one that doesn't apply to the wild wild west of online poker because our standards are based on US law.
As much as we as US voters want free market economics and no nanny state government, the case of Full Tilt highlights exactly how bad the general public is about making decisions left to our own devices.
The byzantine rules of American business are there for a reason, and when they're not there we as consumers need to accept more responsibility for our purchases.
If Full Tilt were an American company, I would be much more inclined to agree that they've been criminal in some way, probably because we have so many regulations about transparency that they would have certainly read article one.
If Full Tilt has just about any operational accounts besides those, it's quite possible that they THOUGHT they were solvent when they actually paid out the "dividends.
On April 14th, they might legitimately have thought they were okay.
You really don't understand business law.
Siphoning off money from an insolvent company is stealing.
On their asset sheet?
There is no insanity defense does not fly in civil court.
On their asset sheet?
You guys seem to be ignoring the fact that in order for money to be seized, it has to exist beforehand; in order for money to get stolen, it has to exist beforehand.
Add it all up, and I really doubt that on April 14th, anyone at Full Tilt Poker was thinking, "Oh, god, we're running out of money.
Again, probably stupid, but not criminal beyond reasonable doubt.
I'm honestly not trolling or trying to be deliberately annoying.
Really want to know - if the DOJ stuff is true.
If they paid their board members hundreds of millions, while shorting player funds, losing millions to payment processing etc, do you acknowledge there's a major problem?
If Lederer and Ferguson KNEW the company was borderline insolvent and took money anyway, what do you consider that?
Keep in mind, in any jurisdiction, BOARD MEMBERS OF COMPANIES have a financial duty to the company first.
Finally, if this was such a horrible situation and DOJ freezing funds makes repayment impossible, how did Stars manage to pay US players back in a few weeks with no problems?
Do you have a source for that?
They could not have had a reasonable expectation that they were going to get back the stolen money and money that was uncollected from bank accounts.
So they were still paying dividends while not having enough assets to cover player deposits.
That IS criminal beyond a reasonable doubt.
Yes, you are severely confused.
No doubt about that.
So it should not have been counted as part of their assets.
Rest of post ignored since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote: One of those emails read, in part: "To protect both our players and business from financial problems, all player account funds are segregated and held separately from our operating accounts.
Unlike some companies in our industry, we completely understand and accept that your account money belongs to you, not Full Tilt Poker.
And yet, just two weeks later, the DOJ claimed they seized nearly double that.
The DOJ most certainly did NOT seize that much money.
This is true in concept as far as the alleged illegal activity.
But the mechanical aspects may be different from what you describe.
According to post 9, Full Tilt was formed as "Tiltware LLC" which is a completely different entity from a corporation.
Assuming LLC law is similar there to US rules, an LLC can not pay "dividends" and can normally only have partners, not shareholders; and in that case FTP could only pay partner draws, not dividends.
It would in fact be a more complex version of your "sole proprietorship" example which also means it "wouldn't work".
The source here the draws would be the same as any corporate dividends in determining legality inder the current accusations.
But the taxation to US citizen partners would be very different.
Dividends are taxed under income tax law only.
Partnership percentages of profits are considered self-employment income and are subject to both income and employment taxes SS 10.
The draws themselves are not taxed in addition to the partners' profit share, they are part of it.
Just trying to clarify.

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